EJAE on KPop Demon Hunters and Her Journey to Success

♪ Gonna be, gonna be golden ♪

[Ejae sings in Korean]

I think there's a formula for a K-pop hit.

Hooky is definitely important.

The melody came quite instantly.

We just like looked at ourselves and like,

Ejae, is this a hit?

Like we're just like, Wow, I think this is a smash.

Wired sat down with Ejae,

she's the singing voice behind Rumi

and Netflix's wildly successful K-Pop Demon Hunters.

She co-wrote several songs on the soundtrack,

including Golden.

We talked about what it's like inside the K-pop machine

and if there's a formula to writing a hit song.

This is The Big Interview.

[camera clicking]

[casual music]

So the movie came out in June,

it's become Netflix most watched project.

There's Oscar buzz.

What's it like knowing that every kid in America

knows the words to your song?

Oh my God.

It's like a dream come true as a songwriter.

And the fact that kids are like so plugged.

So the fact that they love it,

it's like I feel real proud of myself, you know?

You got like the kids' stamp of approval.

I got them.

And it's hard to get kids' stamp of approval,

so I feel like a cool person.

Can you tell me a little bit of the story of Golden,

and like did you know it was going to be a hit

right off the bat?

I mean, in our little circle, yes, it was a hit.

Sometimes like, you know, I do hear from other songwriters,

like when a hit happens, it happens quite fast.

The lyric and the writing was a whole process,

but the melody came quite instantly,

because I had this session with Mark, my co-writer,

and I was like, Mark, I'm so excited.

I was like, Oh my God, this melody.

And he heard it and he was like,

Oh my God, this is amazing.

So when we finished the whole song and the lyrics,

we just like looked at ourselves and like,

we're just like, Wow. Ejae is this a hit?

Like we're just like, Wow, I think this is a smash.

So yeah, amongst us, like we thought it was a hit.

Is there like a formula to making a K-pop hit

or is it just different every time?

I think for like K-pop hit,

hooky is definitely important.

A concept that everyone can relate to

and it's kind of easy to sing.

I think with K-pop hits, though,

melody is also very important,

but you need different elements.

You have to keep exciting the audience,

whether there's a chord change,

or there's a melodic change,

or rhythms change, or something.

The second verse is a rap, you know?

Because, again, K-pop idols are usually in groups,

so you need different members singing different parts,

showing off their role in the group.

That's one thing, and also, K-pop,

very important is choreography.

There are a lot of songs in K-pop

where the song got huge because of the choreography.

So I think that comes hand in hand in K-pop.

There is a general formula of like,

if you start on one on the verse,

start on like the upbeat on the pre,

and then the chorus come in before or something.

Like it should come in differently.

And also like, melodically, like if you start here,

in the pre-chorus go higher,

and in the chorus come back to the the verse

or like go higher.

You know, there's like a formula to that.

So I think with Golden too,

it kind of followed that formula.

Golden was actually quite interesting of being a hit

because, right now, a lot of the pop hits

are quite in the same range.

It's more like lyrical puns and funny concepts.

But the melodies are quite easy to listen to.

Whereas Golden is very melodic, right?

But I do still think in pop and global hits in general,

melody is king, 100%.

Nirvana is a huge example of that.

Teen Spirit. He's saying gibberish.

Definitely something I didn't expect you to say.

No, but seriously, it's like, Mosquito.

It's like, literally.

But the melody is so good.

And when your melody is amazing,

and for me, I look up to Max Martin so much,

he has like incredible melodies.

It just like, oof.

I have so much respect for Taylor Swift and Max Martin.

That synergy is just amazing.

So I think, universally, when the concept is really good,

and it's easy to say, and also when there's a good melody

and a great message, you have a hit, I think.

There's been sort of a lot of talk right now

about AI's infiltration into songwriting

and just artistry in general.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Like did you use it at all for the movie?

No.

One thing I find so interesting,

so fascinating is like,

people are like, Oh, like it's an animated character

and it's a girl group and they're singing. It's AI.

Like why is this AI girl group becoming number one,

and stuff like that, right?

It's hurtful because we work so hard.

Like I'm a singer, I'm not an AI.

As a songwriter, like you've kind of been more

behind the scenes.

What is your relationship with fame right now?

Like do you consider yourself famous?

No.

[both chuckle]

I consider the song famous, which I love.

Fame is a tricky thing.

You know, I was a K-pop trainee myself,

and my grandpa is also an actor.

So I've seen fame in different angles,

and it's very beautiful in the front, you know?

But it can get very, very dark.

I feel like fame is definitely not for the faint heart,

and so I'm trying to navigate through it.

Suddenly getting all this attention is quite,

it's very new.

I can't quite say it's natural for me, to be honest.

I love being behind the scenes,

and working with people behind the scenes.

But yeah, I'm trying to get used to it.

I was listening to an interview with Maggie Kang

and she was saying how it took her years

to even be able to pitch this movie,

and she didn't come across any like animated Korean movies.

What does it mean to have this breakthrough moment

and so much success and for that to be

an Asian story and a Korean story?

Oh my God, it means the world.

It means so much as a Korean American, Asian American woman.

And it just feels so cool to be finally like portrayed

as not the typical portrayal of Asian women, I feel like,

which is like, what do you call,

like subservient. Subservient.

Yeah, and like, quiet and passive

and always like listening.

Because I'm not really like that,

I'm quite like outspoken, I'm quite blunt.

First of all, it's a superhero movie about Korean women.

And they're like so funny. They're goofy.

They're not just solely strong and badass,

but like, they like eat their food like crazy.

I do that all the time.

Like we binge on our food and just like.

I think that's what I think is beautiful about the film,

portraying that side of it too.

Seeing that as cool, you know?

Obviously like K-pop has been huge for a long time,

but this is introducing so many new people to it.

Do you feel like, I don't know, how do you feel about that?

Do you worry about it becoming like diluted?

Like, is there concerns around authenticity?

No, not at all.

Because, again, this film,

like there are a lot of Koreans that are a part of it.

You know, I'm one of them, you know?

I wrote all the Korean lyrics, except for Soda Pop.

Because I'm bilingual,

I always try to make sure that the end sentence

or end rhyme of the Korean lyrics

rhymes with the English lyrics.

So Golden, for example.

♪ Gonna be, gonna be golden ♪

[Ejae sings in Korean]

It rhymes, and it makes sense.

So, I think that was another thing

that I think people appreciated, probably.

I mean, I liked it, so. [chuckles]

What are your favorite sort of like,

Korean Easter eggs in the movie?

There's so many.

For example, it's very small,

but like the scene where Rumi like loses her voice

and she like runs out,

and then Mira and Zoey are in like this restaurant,

and they were in their sweatpants,

and they're eating soup.

And the fact that it's not like the typical bulgogi food,

it's like gukbap, which is, Koreans would know.

And the way like the Korean kimchi radish was in,

like the way that the chopstick were put,

it was so authentic.

So, and those little details

is what I think the Korean people definitely appreciated.

Oh, another one, Easter egg.

I love when they say [speaks Korean].

[Zoey speaks Korean]

Like in between, that's so,

that means like, let's go.

I love that. I feel like every language

has a version of that.

Yes, 100%.

And for me, when I saw that, I was like,

Oh my God, I do that all the time.

So, that was such a beautiful surprise.

I think another one was,

that actually people don't notice that much

is the fact that in the plane

they're like sitting on the floor,

and they don't really sit on the couch.

Koreans, I feel like, I noticed with my friends,

like we sit on the floor and eat.

That was a really cool detail.

And the way Mira sits in that scene

that I was talking about earlier,

where they're eating that stew.

I can't do it right now.

Her leg is like up, she's eating like this.

Yeah. It's so fun.

Anyway, yeah. That was so Korean.

That's such a Korean stance,

which I do all the time.

I want to go back to you being a trainee

for SM Entertainment.

And like, so how old were you when that happened?

Can you like tell me a little bit about this world?

Because I find it so fascinating.

It is fascinating.

It's still fascinating for me too.

My dream to become a singer was like three, four.

And then I started auditioning around 10 or 11.

And then one of them was SM, and I got in,

and you start training quite immediately.

You learn how to dance, sing,

jazz dance, rap, Chinese, Japanese,

like the whole thing.

Wow. All day, literally.

Every couple months, there would be like showcase

of like showcasing what you've learned.

Every Monday, every Sunday, actually,

all the trainees would join in one room,

and we would go in front of the camera

and sing and speak our Chinese and do our dance moves.

So it was like, intense, I'm not going to lie.

What was the criticism like? Like was it harsh?

How do you cope with that at a young age?

Damn. I don't know how, what,

I don't think I knew what coping meant at that age, right?

We just take it literally, especially during,

when you're 11, when you're going through puberty

is when like girls are so sensitive.

It wasn't easy, I'm not going to lie.

It wasn't easy, it's very competitive,

and you're kind of trying to do this job

that's essentially an adult job, you know what I mean?

All I could do was work hard

and always try to put my best foot forward,

and always I was craving for a compliment.

Mn-hmm.

That was constant.

Like, Oh, you did so good today.

I just wanted something.

Did you get those very often?

Not really.

I tried to.

You got better or something,

but it's very objective.

Like looking at it now as like an adult,

I understand the reason behind certain things

when it comes to marketing or something like that.

But at a young age, it's like, it's not easy to hear.

I'm glad the fame is coming now that it is when I was a kid.

So you were a trainee for 10 years?

Mm-hmm. A little over actually, like 12.

What kind of made you walk away from it?

And were you expecting to like debut in a group?

Like during that time, did you come close to that?

Yeah, I was supposed to debut, and that didn't happen.

And then I discovered like underground music,

and my vision and SM didn't align.

You know, girls and guys with debut quite early,

quite young.

I was like 23.

So that's quite like,

like that's like grandma age

for the K-pop industry. Don't say that.

I'm dead serious.

Like, yeah, so that's kind of like one of the reasons

why it just didn't work out.

Especially when it comes to my singing too.

My singing didn't really align

with kind of their vision, I think.

I have a very lower tone, clearly.

More raspier voice.

So I have no hard feelings about that.

But as a kid, you know, it hurts.

I mean, looking at where you are now,

like does it give you any satisfaction,

just thinking back on the people

who maybe didn't believe in you

or who didn't give you an opportunity,

are you kind of like?

You can be petty.

I am. I'm not,

I don't know, like I said, like I get it.

Back then, I was not, like at the level that I am now.

Like I couldn't sing those high notes back then.

So I get where they were coming from.

So I do feel satisfied in the fact that like,

I didn't give up and I just kept going.

I think the biggest regret I had when I got dropped

was I felt like I let down 11-year-old Ejae

who really wanted to become a singer.

So in that respect, I feel,

I'm just like, I hope I made her proud.

It's like the biggest thing I feel.

With Rumi's character sort of like feeling like,

she has to mask her patterns.

Like, I don't know, did you relate to that?

Big time. Absolutely.

Very competitive industry,

and looking perfect, sounding perfect,

dancing perfect is essential.

K-pop is not just about the music, it's about everything.

Visuals, packaging, marketing.

How you speak, are you smart,

like how you dance, and everything.

So, it did make me feel pressured

to make sure to always hide away

all my insecurities and my flaws.

Oh, and that pressure was really, really heavy.

And so, I understood that pressure

of wanting to hide that

to be accepted,

to feel loved.

Oof, that was really, really hard.

And I think I related to Rumi a lot in that.

Has anything weird been happening

in light of how big the movie has become?

Just like on a fan level.

Or do you feel overwhelmed?

Fan level?

Yeah. Oh.

The thing is like, the fans have been so amazing.

I think the fame part is a little tricky.

I don't want to read comments because I have

and I was like hurt by it sometimes.

But like that's what I'm saying is like,

the fame part doesn't fit with my personality

because I was very like honest with myself.

Like to be in this industry, you got to have thick skin.

I don't think I do.

So like, I was like really real with myself.

What's the most like toxic

or intimidating element of the fandom?

Well, you know, when I was writing Your Idol,

it was inspired by that.

I saw the dark side of it,

and part of that was the intensity of the fandom.

One of the times I had that experience

when I was a K-pop trainee was like,

at that time, there was a boy band called TVXQ.

They were huge at that time.

And I still remember

there's like a third floor dance practice room

and a first floor, and we had to walk up.

And to walk up, it's like up, up,

and right here, it was like this glass door.

It's just glass.

The fans were all over that door,

and they would try to open it,

and once they had like little bit of like a crack open,

and whenever the female trainees go up,

they would throw trash and call us names,

really bad names.

And mind you, we're like 11, 12, maybe old like 14.

And I just remember that so clearly

and feeling so scared.

They threw trash at us.

So that was like a really dark moment that I experienced.

SM definitely protected us from this.

Once that happened, they blocked everything out.

But that was like an intense fan scene I've seen.

What do you think that was about?

Like why call you guys names and throw trash

if they're, you know, fans of the genre?

It's like tricky when you're idolizing someone so much.

It can get intense, and it gets very dark fast, and toxic.

So I think the obsession can be very,

it can make you very blind to your intense emotions.

And a lot of the fans are like teenagers,

and I feel like when you're a teenager,

you're going through puberty,

you feel lots of intense emotions.

What is your relationship to ambition right now?

Mm!

What a cool question.

Ooh.

Toxic. I'm kidding.

[Manisha chuckles]

Same.

It can be, right?

I swear.

That's like Golden.

Golden is a bittersweet song.

In that moment with Rumi and the character,

she's like really focused on the Honmoon

and getting that achievement

that she kind of ignores her flaws. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And even in the movie

you see her saying like,

No one more hiding, while she's hiding.

And that's a really important part of the message,

a part of that song.

So like, as much as it's great to strive

and be ambitious and go,

always do it in a healthy way.

Always keep talking to yourself while you're doing it,

don't ignore your health, don't ignore your mental health.

Be real with yourself while you're being ambitious.

It's a great balance, I think, is important.

So, my relationship with ambition is healthy, I think.

When you were on SNL, like were you nervous to sing?

I'm always nervous to sing.

I'm nervous in the studio to sing.

So, the fact that I'm performing it is a huge jump for me.

My comfort zone and usually where I feel the best singing

is my own little corner in my house in Brooklyn.

But yeah, that was a huge jump, I was so nervous.

What do you see being like next for K-pop?

I think K-pop was kind of going

through this like pop direction.

I think it kind of lost its K-pop beauty,

and what I find it is, is like,

K-pop has a very unique approach to genres,

and they love to mix things up.

Just like how Korean people and food,

they like to mix things up.

Like bibimbap is just a mixture of all these things.

And I love that about Korea,

and I think you see that a lot in the movie with K-pop.

You see different genres mixed,

different melodies come up randomly.

Rhythmically, it's always changing.

Suddenly the bridge is a different song, you know?

And that's the beauty of it.

So I think maybe that will come back more,

and I want it to come back more.

Embracing that side,

having a lot of Korean in it as well.

I think that may be very curious.

Well, thank you so much,

this was totally fascinating.

And congratulations.

Thank you. I appreciate you.

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